Showing posts with label World of Warcraft. Show all posts
Showing posts with label World of Warcraft. Show all posts

Thursday, July 23

Hilarious WoW PvE Videos

I had to post this series of "pro strat" Ulduar videos. They're funny beyond words:

Flame Leviathan - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azFo-Mlh3Fc&NR=1
Razorscale - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3lFKbVaPZw&NR=1
Auriaya - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elA3bFPLbd8

Hunter Q&A....

Wow. I mean really. Nothing in this Q&A was particularly interesting, exciting, or clever. In fact, the first third of the class review dealt with every hunter's favorite long-term undelivered promise: special arrows. But I suppose the overall cluelessness toward the class was best summarized in this quote:


We want to resolve what a hunter is supposed to do in melee (Raptor Strike? Disengage?).

I can resolve that for them right now. The hunter never raptor strikes. Ever. You know when a hunter raptor strikes? When they tank Bloodboil in Black Temple and are forced to melee for 30 seconds with no other option. And even then most hunters just melee and watch their healthstones/healthpots/deterrence in a desperate effort not to die. Even before the launch of Burning Crusade there was only one time to ever bother with Raptor Strike - Thaddius in 40 man Naxx, if your tank failed at positioning him just right and you could not get out of your dead zone to shoot. Even in PvP the only useful melee skill a hunter posesses is counter-attack, which is not nearly worth the point spent, especially since it requires a parry or a dodge to trigger it...I really forget, since I haven't even bothered to train level 1 on my new hunter. Hunters do not melee. EVER.

The hunter is not a ranger, a hybrid, a melee character of any kind. They are a physical dps ranged class with a pet (regardless of the "magical" aspect to some attacks, they are still an archer). I sincerely hope Blizzard does not make the mistake this late in the game of redesigning the class to involve any melee skills whatsoever - if this was inteded to be a ranged/melee hybrid class then it should have been developed in that vein rather than with a pet. Oh wait,


I’ll add that the melee attack issue for hunters themselves is something we keep discussing. While we are unlikely to go back to a melee-focused build for hunters, we might consider a model where hunters don’t run away most of the time but switch to melee attacks – perhaps even a single punishing attack on a cooldown before the hunter Disengaged or whatever. This would be one of those things that helped hunters feel more different than actual magic casters, and might make them care about melee weapons as more than stat sticks.


I was confused about this "melee attack issue" until I read further to see the other community questions addressed. This reads like the laziest list ever - complaint after complaind regarding pet controls, survival, heals and resurection for pets. The heal issue was actually my favorite:


One suggestion made by many hunters was to add a passive ability that healed the hunter's pet when the hunter received a heal from a party or raid member.

I have an alternate suggestion. People who are too slow/bad/lazy to heal their own pet should not play a pet class. Pets already recieve pleanty of accidental healing from AoE heals, PoM and other passive regeneration skills. Proper management of pets, such as pulling them AWAY from whirlwinding mobs goes a long way to keeping a pet alive, as does healing it when you know unavoidable damage is incoming. Often, keeping your pet alive in PvE content is as simple as setting your pet on the melee target and setting yourself on the ranged target. Not hard. But then again these are the same people who complain it's too slow to resurrect your pet as BM spec - even though the cast timer goes down to 5 seconds or so.

Finally, the largest misstatement of the interview:
Now for hunters specifically, we think the class is just too cooldown limited,
which creates problems with haste.

This just made me laugh. Out loud. Hunters have many different shots, all of which share a global cooldown. We also have a large number of INSTANT shots - all stings (viper/serpent/scorpid), black arrow and explosive shot for survival, chimera shot and silencing shot for marksmanship, aimed shot and arcane shot for all specs. The only shots that have a cast time are multi-shot, steady shot, and the channeled volley. So perhaps when thinking about itemizing the hunter set gear Blizzard should take into account that haste is not a desired stat - it is equally useless to all. Haste would have been useful in the days of aimed shot spam, but this is the age of hunter instant shots with steady shot mixed in when nothing else is available. Haste is simply not beneficial to most of our skills. This has nothing at all to do with cooldowns. I prefer to play without cooldowns, and that is how it works for Survival spec - I hang onto my Rapid Fire for Bloodlust or favorable conditions, and then maximize my dps. As Marksmanship it's another story that involves on use trinkets, properly timing Rapid Fire, using Readiness to make Rapid Fire available again, and then reusing it again at the proper moment. So yes, I feel this build is restricted greatly by cooldowns and I don't enjoy playing it. But that has nothing to do with haste whatsoever. To make haste useful would require reworking hunter instant shots to include cast time, and would fundamentally redesign the class.

So to summarize. Nothing interesting in the pipe, nothing necessary being fixed (apart from the oft made "we're going to streamline the pet bar" promise and the teaser of maybe, possibly, perhaps in a few years you can tame more pets). And no real solid understanding of what real hunters want, just responses to the whining masses.

Full Text:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/underdev/hunter.html

Sunday, July 12

The World vs. The Character: Meta and Micro Story in MMORPGs

One of the fundamental problems with storytelling in an MMORPG is that the game provides two basic types of experience: gaming and social. There needs to be a well defined balance between the game's story (meta) and the character's story (micro), but also some consideration must be given to the player as well, and the fact that their interraction with the world is but one facet of the game.

The World of Warcraft approach to questing and game story has been to focus on the meta story - the world in peril, pushing back the never ending assault of the burning legion on the world of Azeroth. The micro story of each character suffers as a result. Though each character grows in strength and level, there is not much in terms of "character" development. You never "mature" from one class into another, and though you may attain titles and honors, there are no real "ceremonies" or acklowledgement within the game, aside from the odd congratulatory mail from NPCs. In this regard, WoW plays emphasizes the MMO aspect while minimizing the RPG - it sacrifices the small scale narrative and character growth of an RPG for the meta story and social gameplay. The real accomplishments of the game are collective: success in the PvP arena or Battleground system, or success with the 10-20-25-40 player raiding content.

There are small nods to a micro story - opening the dungeon Ahn Quiraj required the completion of a massive quest chain, at the end of which one character on each realm was able to finally break the seal and open the instance. In this instance, individual players were able to impact the world and interract on a "personal" level with the meta story. Other such quests have been since added in small quantity, most notably the zone-wide quest chain in Dragonblight for the Horde (there's some sort of Alliance counterpart, I'm sure) that culminates in the death of an Alliance and Horde Hero, the overthow of Sylvannas Windrunner, and the retaking of the Undercity. Even so, these quests that attempt to draw the player into the meta storyline do little beyond make the player feel like a witness to great events - not a participant. The gameplay video was a nice touch, as with the short one you encounter before Brutallus in the Sunwell. These small moments help to draw the character, and the player, into the world. Ultimately they fall flat due, in my opinion, to their infrequency - they tell little stories but ones that are largely unrelated and don't build on any sort of narrative or momentum.

It's no secret to anyone who has heard me talk at length about my feelings about WoW that I believe Blizzard blew a golden opportunity. Before the release of Burning Crusade, the game did make small efforts to develop characters. They were simplistic, but they did exist: class quests as you leveled, or epic weapon quests for some classes allowed the player to participate in a narrative that was specifically for them. With the release of Wrath of the Lich King, a move was made back in this direction for the Death Knight class. NPCs treat Death Knights with disgust, as does the general population before each individual character is accepted as a member of their faction. In this sense, the DK earns its place as a fighter of the Alliance or Horde. This type of character accomplishment has a strong role playing aspect to it, and manages to draw the character into the story. The starter DK quests are also well designed, taking the character through a number of linked objectives to prove their worth, though they ultimately reject domination by the Lich King and defect to their faction instead.

This type of interraction and questing could have made WoW into a truly phenomenal game. Unfortunately, the choice was made to bog the game down under hundreds and hundreds of quests unrelated to any greater objectives or to develop the feel of the world. "Go fetch" and "go kill" quests are just vehicles for free money and experiencem not storytelling. Players were resigned to grinding out these quests for miscelaneous rewards to gain wealth, rather than move a story point forward. The balance between narrative and practical advancement was lost. WotLK seems to attempt to right this imbalance, but the formula was already set. The excellent quest lines and the ability for quest completion to literally redesign the world (absolutely brilliant) become burried under all the bloated extra quests that simply exist to grant xp and useless items, guide players through each zone from quest hub to quest hub, and occupy player time. Every thing the game does right is countered by something the game does wrong, leaving it at a net standstill.

It's because of this "overburdening" of quests in WoW that I was nervous to hear that NCSoft had implemented a large number of quests in their forthcoming "Aion: The Tower of Eternity" MMORPG. Having experienced NCSoft's idea of quests in Lineage II, I was greatly alarmed. Quests in Lineage II were generally not story telling devices - instead, they were ways to maximize your use of time. Since you were going out to hunt anyway to regain experience you'd lost, or build up some materials and wealth to craft some new gear, you simply accepted a quest that would take you days or weeks to complete that you could inch forward on simultaneously.

There were also "character narrative" quest lines at level 20, 35, 37, and 39 that allowed you to develop your character into a more advanced and specialized class. At level 75 you completed an even more complex and complicated quest line to gain access to a new set of abilities. Beyond that there were additional complex questlines for becoming a noble character, a ranking that came with numerous privledges and special qualities. These types of quests were frustrating but made the player the agent of their character's development. They also punctuated the character's lifespan well, giving the players a feeling that their character was truly advancing periodically. The game did not have many quests, but still managed to draw the player/character into the world by the development of the character through the levels and - most notably - through server reputation. Being a game that focused almost entirely on world pvp and wars between individual players, each person was deeply tied to the other players through social and political actions.


The open pvp system forced players to constantly watch their backs, protect their friends, and build the strength of their clans, alliances, and relationships with other individual players and groups. This social/political structure was incredibly immersive and addictive, drawing players into server drama and making each person an integral part of the server. The "meta story" of Lineage 2 was not a world of NPCs in peril - it was a world entirely populated by players. The void of content actually served to increase the immersive qualities of the game. Player choices - alliances, wars, castle sieges - these drove the story of the world forward and each server was unique and told a different "story". There were servers on which people generally cooperated and worked together, sharing castles and collaborating to defeat the most difficult world spawn raid bosses. Then there were servers like mine (Kain) where massive wars were formed on a server-wide scale with kill zones, territorial lockdowns, and constant raids of the "enemy" territory. As a casual virtual social anthropologist it was an incredibly fascinating experiment in human nature. Given a blank slate, people responded with a terrific breadth of actions, from incredibly collaborative and supportive to aggressive, violent, or manipulative.

Monday, June 29

More Blizzard Pandering to the Masses

They said it would never happen. Then they probably calculated how much money they've made off of server transfers, gender changes, and name changes.

WoW Faction Changes

I think I hear the death of what little integrity was left in the WoW universe. There's really no way to fit this into the game narrative.

Thursday, June 18

Today in In-Game Advertising

Just when I thought the free "Toyota Prius" download for Sims 3 was the cleverest summer game marketing scheme, Mountain Dew's "Game Fuel" trumps all. As a pet collector I couldn't turn my back on the free "battle bot" pet offered by the deal, which is likely driving millions of other players to the site as well, generating a load of page hits and click throughs on ads (you can earn tokens by clicking through banners and affiliates) as people earn credits to enter prize drawings.

Yes, you can go just once to get your pet. But if you wish to "fuel" your pet, then you need to return daily.

Evil genius.

Thursday, June 4

WoW Comics: Random DL Comics

Emotes

I love this comic because it pretty simply encapsulates the feeling of a new expansion pack or massive content update. Everything else just stops mattering and the need to power through the content is overwhelming.

Must Level!

This one is also hilarious. The ridiculously high item values on greens in BC meant that a lot of people replaced low level raiding gear in their early 60s with hideous mismatched crap. Thankfully this was slightly retuned for Wrath of the Lich King, and the armor was all pretty much one skin set so as you made the transition from an epic gear set to a green or blue one, you wound up matching pretty well.

Quality Gear

Game Stop and Sims 3

Last night I paid an ill advised visit to the Game Stop in Bellevue Square (ok, 2 strikes against it for being located in the heart of evil and for being, well, a Game Stop). I just wanted to pick up the new Sims game, which is an emberassing public admission. I haven't played a Sims game since they released their puppy and kitten expansion pack for the first Sims title, so I thought I would grab it for a bit of mindless summer entertainment, and also to cover the net downtime and hassle I'm bound to face as I get ready to move out of my apartment. What can I say, I'm a chick and I love building houses and gardens...anyway, equivocating about my purchase aside, I was reminded why I never go into Game Stop stores:

1) pushy sales clerk who I tried to avoid in the incredibly small store
2) he was the only person on staff, so when the 10 year old ahead of me at the register started asking questions I had to wait. And wait. And wait. This kid bit on everything "do you want to buy a strategy guide? 10% off." "Would you like to order? E3 just happened so there's lots to preorder."
3) The highlight of it all was when the kid asked what was available to pre order, and the clerk started listing other Blizzard games (the kid was buying a game pad to play WoW with, which made me cringe pleanty). When the clerk semi excitedly (the guy was practically comatose) said "you can preorder Starcraft 2" the kid actually said "Star Craft? what's that?" and his mom actually asked "you mean Star Wars?" so in an effort to speed things along I chimed in that "it was an RTS game released before you were born by Blizzard." Kid has probably never heard of Diablo either.
4) Anyway, kid and mom finally finished their business, and I got to buy my copy of Sims 3, which aparently I was getting the LAST copy of, because they gave me the damn display copy. I really hate when they do that.
5) Feeling the need to defend myself from the clerk's "you're buying a shitty game and you're a chick therefore you are a fake gamer" look, I wound up chatting about Blizzard games. After I said I played WoW he asked me the dumbest question ever: "what level". SERIOUSLY. WHAT LEVEL. The 10 year old kid probably has 3 level 80 characters. It was the most insulting question I've been asked in a long time. So I said 80 and he asked a less insulting question: Horde or Alliance, to which I replied both. Then he asked what class and I told him I played a hunter since the open beta and he finally shut up. Before asking me if I wanted to preorder any games, because E3 just happened and games like Starcraft 2 are now available for pre order. SERIOUSLY.

/facepalm

Tuesday, June 2

Obsessive Much?

I told a buddy that I was doing this, but I don't think he took me seriously... If the servers ever come back from whatever black hole Blizzard lost them in, I'll take some pics of my obsessive rainbow bank too. I hate disorganized and cluttery inventory!!








Monday, June 1

WoW Comics: Pets, Holidays and Achievements Edition

A few classic Dark Legacy Comics

Pets and Orphans, Unite!

Achievements!

Loremaster

Through The Looking Glass - I love how DLC comics often have the perspective of NPCs, humanizing the game mechanics to point out how rude or dismissive most players are.

WoW Comics: Favorite Old School Comics

Sadly this is still true today, 100%. Fortunately it's nearly impossible to pull threat on a normal fight.

Rogue DPS Meters

Rogue Threat Meters

WoW Comics: Dark Legacy on Suspended Disbelief

What follows are a short list of some funny DL comics around one general tenet of game theory - "suspended disbelief." This theory was first developed in literary theory (as many game theory concepts are) to describe the understood agreement between author and reader. In vernacular you could call it "going with the flow" or "selective amnesia"- basically it means the reader/gamer/user doesn't question the underlying structure of the work, and accepts the world as it is, and allows the story to unfold from the point of this arbitrary agreement. This could also be considered "artistic license" in literature - the reader just going along with the choices made by the author. In gaming, this frequently takes the form of gamers ignoring repetition or ridiculousness as a structural necessity of the game. Something as simple as killing a monster and watching it respawn and killing it again requires a certain level of "suspension" of common sense. Were this a "real" world and not a virtual one a number of commonplace occurances would not be possible.

For example, high level NPCs asking you to go pick some flowers or recover some tablets that they could easily enough obtain themselves, multiple players performing the same quests making your labor effectively unnecessary, and dailies - complete and recomplete the same quest every day (some newer dailies actually poke fun at this in the quest dialogue, too) are all instances that require suspension of disbelief. These are commonplace in RPG video games, and the gamer "agrees" to look the other way and simply accept the structure of the game as an ends to whatever means - gaining money, items, or experience.

But this "suspended disbelief" is a part of any game because it effectively asks you to forget the repetitive nature of gameplay (especially in "rinse and repeat" type games such as the Diablo franchise, where players bounce between games to clear a certain level repeatedly). It floats beneath the surface of every exchange and interraction, and is easy comic fodder because even gamers not versed in game theory can recognize that this agreement between game designer and consumer occurs.

Instead of turning a blind eye to the repetition of questing, the first comic turns the tables, and sees a new possibility for gathering wealth! The rest are semi related instances of quest humor based around repetition and multiple players.

Entrepreneurial Gnome
Stupid Quest Mechanics
Questing
Quest Drops - I also ask myself often "how come I get one spider leg off a spider (some of the time), shouldn't I be able to get up to 8 from each?"

Relearning talents probably would have consequences. Brain wipe!
Ouchies

Also, suspending disbelief when science fiction meets fantasy.
Dranei Invasion!

Data mining:
Wowhead + Armory

Finally, arbitrary reputation/faction interractions. Thankfully there are fewer factions in WotLK than there were in BC, and the reputation grind is generally less restrictive.
Rep Up!

Saturday, May 23

WoW Comics: So Me That It Hurts

There's really no other way to describe this strip - this is me to the letter. When WoW first released, I played a hunter (as I had during the beta test period). I tamed cats exclusively as my pets, and trained leatherworking and skinning as my professions, along with fishing and cooking. My early days were spent farming bears and wolves in Ashenvale for their meat and skins. When my pet was hungry, I would fish up and cook fishies for it from the lakes and rivers.

When people heard this they were always a bit shocked to hear that I was running around cooking and skinning so many animals as an animal loving vegetarian. But working within the game's system, in which all cooked food was carnivorous I worked off this principle of using the whole "animal" - leveling up off the XP, profiting from the vendor loot, and leveling my skills of the meat and leather scavenged off the corpse.

Wednesday, May 20

WoW Comics: Dark Legacy's Valentines

I'm planning to dig into some of my favorite gaming cartoons as an ongoing post series when I get back from my vacation in early June. For now, I have to post these two holiday-themed Dark Legacy Comics because it's such a wonderful blend of accurate, cute and cynical.


Friday, May 15

Critter Glitter!

I found this among the many old screenshots from when Wrath of the Lich King first launched. Fun with arctic wildlife :)


Tuesday, May 12

Server Downtime

...has me looking through some old screenshots, and I came across this humorous screenshot of my HK count.


It's really a shame - I lost at least a thousand L2 screenshots over the years as my old computers blew up on me, and I never bother to take screenshots in WoW since the game isn't beautiful like Lineage.

I did manage to find the shot below, though, from our very first ever successful bear run!

Monday, May 11

Spring UI Cleaning: Mission Complete!

I finally managed to get my UI back to a simple, condensed view similar to what I used when I raided pre-Burning Crusade as a dirty, dirty Alliance Night Elf Hunter. I've been holding off on a large number of add-on downloads out of lazyness and my deep mistrust of curse gaming's addons.

But, now that I have finally sat down and fixed everything up (except for my damn minimap, which has resisted all the addons I threw at it) I am much happier. I even went one step further than I have ever gone before in customizing my interface - I moved my self and pet portraits down to the bottom of the screen, directly above my chat box. Now I can monitor my health and chat without moving my eyes, YAY. Not sure if this bit will stick or not. I'm having a hard enough time getting used to having my target and target of target boxes at the bottom of the screen. It's convenient in that I can monitor whatever I'm healing or killing without looking away from my skill bars or too far from my own character, but it's inconvenient in that I keep SHOOTING SHEEP because I can't see my target as well when i'm selecting targets without assisting someone off a main tank list...

Ideally, all these changes will begin to feel normal soon and I will stop fumbling around trying to find everything. I'm pleased that I managed to fit nearly every hunter skill neatly on the screen (minus a few melee skills - lawl raptor strike - and unused aspects) as well as a small variety of mounts and vanity pets!

A streamlined but informative UI is one of the most important parts of an MMO. Lineage II managed to master the art of the minimal interface, forcing all users to make due with the same skeleton interface. It was awful, but equally awful for everyone. Unless you used mods (banable offense) that told you the hp/mana/level/location of players every player had the exact same amount of information on every other - even if you were in the same party. There was a small sliver of extra information available to "trusted players" such as the clan listing a character's level. Otherwise, every interface provided the exact same information - there was nothing extra to be squeezed out of the game and displayed to players so there was no need for things like recount. Fortunately, the interface for Aion seems to have taken some much needed cues from WoW's in terms of layout and design - whether customization will follow or not remains to be seen (aside note: I want my beta key now).

I'll definitely be revisiting the topic of interfaces when I finally manage to weasel my way into Aion. I might even have to dig up some old footage/screenshots of older games to really make a broad analysis of the differences. After all, my ultimate passion will always be semantics and semiotics. MMO's are virtual worlds where every pixel is created for a reason. Every symbol and sign communicates buckets of knowledge to those who can interpret it, making each gamer into an unknowing semiotician. My last treatise on the topic ran a whopping 64 pages (hey, there were pictures too) and was for a research methods course for my master's degree. Hopefully I'll be able to speak more succinctly on the topic when speaking for an initiated audience (nothing like having to explain what a "mana bar" is to a bunch of professors...).


Friday, May 8

In The Cards: Part 3

Today is the day! I finally get my Darkmoon Card: Greatness.

/rejoice!

Thursday, May 7

Best Messy Boss Kill Ever

I should've screen shotted it, though what made this Mimiron kill so epic was really the early "wipe the raid" call on vent. When the tank went down and the raid started dropping in phase 4 due to dead healers, it looked like the fight was over. Everyone thought we were crazy to keep going, but we were so close! It was crazy pew pewing down the last few percent of each part of Mimiron's toys and then attempting as best we could to "full burn" with...what, 2 hunters a feral druid and an elemental shaman alive? According to most of the raid, it appeared that the body repaired itself in spite of our valiant effort, but then miraculously, combat ends and the body becomes lootable. I honestly had no idea what was going on I was just mashing buttons as hard as I could...

/profit!

The Tuesday raid was pretty awesome as well, clearing out 2 full areas and all the Keepers except Mimiron. Zoom!

Spring UI Cleaning

My apartment may be a totally lost cause these days, but by the time I'm done with my WoW UI it will be sparkly and clean! I spent a good deal of time last night finally rolling around to fixing some of my out of date add-ons and relocating some of my interface elements. It's definitely a work in progress. I'm still trying to figure out how to condense the elements a little bit further - I've got too much dead space atm and it's inefficient and distracting. I'll post some screenshots when I'm done. This has got to be the 5th or 6th major UI overhaul I've done since I first started using add-ons and I always forget to document a successful layout.

Tuesday, May 5

Children's Week!!! (Don't Be A Dick)

I am getting seriously annoyed with the attitude of most WoW players these days, and here is a prime example, in story form:

I clear my way through a tower in Alterac Valley with my Children's Week orphan in tow - capping a tower in AV is one of the 4 goals for the "School of Hard Knocks" PvP achievement for this world holiday. Another player follows me up, also with an orphan out - I know he/she is also making a bolt for the flag and this is a slight annoyance, since I was there first, put in the effort of killing the guards that were aggroed, etc. However, a rogue without an orphan zoomed in, beat us both to the flag (as I was still getting pelted by arrows) and proceeded to cap it even though both of us with orphans out tried to petition him to stop. I would've been a bit annoyed if the other achievement seeker had snuck by me and stolen my opportunity, but to have someone blatantly block our efforts was just plain rude. This experience was followed by several other failures on my account - getting stuck in combat so that I couldn't summon my orphan (while another rogue capped the flag without an orphan despite the protests of yet another person trying to actually do the achievement), trying to get credit for recapping a tower on defense (that should really count), getting my face smashed in by a ret paladin intent on interupting my flag cap. Fail, fail, fail. People seriously need to learn how to SHARE in this game.

Thanks to Alliance players making an extra effort to kill players attempting to cap towers with their orphans out, and thanks to other Horde players being dicks, it took a number of AV games before I was finally lucky enough to sneak into a tower with my orphan and cap without anyone noticing.

Achievements like this would be a total blast if people were not so dead set on cock blocking other players for fun. I know a lot of other people had nice cooperative experiences with this set of achievements, such as teams allowing opposing players into their Warsong Gulch base to pick up a flag, drop it (without being killed or attacked) and repeat until the team completed the achievement. It reminded me a little bit of my favorite pasttime when WoW first released - cobbling together simple phrases from numbers, symbols and punctuation in order to bypass the linguistic filter meant to keep Horde and Alliance players from communicating. It was hilarious and entertaining to see gamers put forth the effort to think their way around the game's intended social system. I wish I knew where I put the screenshots I took long, long ago of my Night Elf hunter chatting with some random Horde player as we assisted each other with a difficult group quest...